12:05:03 Kate Quealy-Gainer: I'm just gonna do a quick introduction to who I am and what I do and what we do as The Bulletin. So let me just share my screen really quick. It's gonna be very simple and very short. So can everyone see that? Okay, so I'm the editor at The Bulletin of the Center for Children's Books, which is a review journal that we put out monthly. And it reviews books for young people from babies to 18-year-olds. So we do picture books and easy readers, early readers, chapter books and YA books. Typically, each journal is about...I think we get somewhere between 70 and 80 books in each each issue. And we are primarily used as a collection development tool for libraries and educators. So that means our reviews assess the book both on quality and audience, as well its use in either an educational setting or a public library setting. We are connected with The Center for Children's Books, which is part of the iSchool and The Center for Children's Books does sort of a fair amount of research in children's literature. Their most recent project, I believe, was on the Newbery. We also put on events like this multiple times during the semester. So if you are interested, I would urge you to go to their website. They have a whole list, a calendar pops up right away, and they just have a lot of cool stuff going on. I know they have a bookclub this semester, so that that's really interesting. So that's kind of us and I'm gonna actually stop, because there are speakers Jessie, Isabelle, and Adriana. And I will introduce them in just a second. 12:07:10 Kate Quealy-Gainer: I wanted to just give a quick overview of what sensitivity reading is. It's basically someone who can read and assess a manuscript with a particular representation or perspective in mind that they have experience with, that perhaps the author doesn't or the publisher doesn't. So it's really becoming an essential practice in the publishing world, because as the publishing world and literature in general does the right thing and becomes more diverse and inclusive and representative, we also wanna make sure that the books and literature being put forth give an authentic representation and include, you know, sort of the purposeful and intentional expansion of diversity. So that's sort of the deal with sensitivity reading. I have never done it, which is why I have three speakers here to discuss a little bit. So I'm gonna let them introduce themselves and then we'll do some sort of, we'll do a round robin of questions. So Jessie, why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself? 12:08:18 Jessie Maimone: Hi everyone! My name is Jessie Maimone. I'm a second year PhD student at the iSchool. I also did my masters in library science at the iSchool focusing on children and teen librarianship, and I've been doing sensitivity reading for about 10 years now. 12:08:37 Kate Quealy-Gainer Isabelle, do you want to go ahead and introduce yourself? 12:08:42 Isabelle Felix: Hi! As she said, my name is Isabelle and I'm a freelance editor, sensitivity reader and writing coach. I've worked with publishing houses, big name authors, YouTubers, consulting firms and more. 12:09:00 Kate Quealy-Gainer: Adriana, do you want to go ahead? 12:09:09 Adriana Martínez: Hi! I'm Adriana Martínez. I am from Puerto Rico and I have been a sensitivity reader since end of 2017, 2018 so it's been about 6 years. And I graduated from Iowa State University with a degree in Women in Gender Studies and a minor in U.S. Latinx Studies which has brought some historical context for how I do sensitivity reads and all of that. I've worked with several publishers: big name, independent and a lot of authors. And I'm also a writer and a freelance editor. I've done a lot of different things. I've been an author's assistant, I've been all over the place within publishing. But yeah, I'm here to talk about sensitivity reads and I'm excited about it. 12:10:06 Kate Quealy-Gainer: Thank you so much. Okay well, one of the first questions that I wanted to start with is both sort of a principled thing and a practical thing. So why did you get into sensitivity reading in the first place? And how did you do it? It seems like an interesting way to sort of get into the publishing world, but I really have no kind of idea how that would happen. So Jessie, why don't you go ahead? If you have a minute go ahead and tell us. 12:10:33 Jessie Maimone: Yeah, sure. So back in like 2012 I was starting a master's degree in book publishing, which I did complete, and one of the projects we did there was reviewing books. And so as I was starting to review books and put those reviews online, I just kind of noticed that I did not appreciate some of the depictions of black women and black biracial women in particular in the books that I was reading. So I kind of started out doing this freelance and I created a website, and that was kind of how people came to me to have their books read and to evaluate them. Currently and for the past few years, maybe about 4 or 5 years or so, I've been working with a company called Writing Diversely and they have a list of people that authors and publishers can hire, and from that, that company takes charge of putting us in contact with people and making sure that the right readers are getting the right books and so we can kind of list out the things that we feel comfortable reading for and that's been really helpful. It's a lot easier to do it that way I think than (for me at least) than running my website, and kind of trying to figure that all out. And so yeah, working with authors, publishers, that sort of thing. 12:11:58 Kate Quealy-Gainer: Alright. Yeah, that definitely makes sense, instead of running your own website. Adriana, did you want to talk a little bit about how you got into it? 12:12:06 Adriana Martínez: So the way I started was a bit of a weird way. While I was still in undergrad I was doing a lot of book reviews, and you know, focusing a lot on literary criticism, which helped me develop that sort of more nuanced take--or not nuanced but more informed--takes on the books that I was reading. And I was primarily reading a lot of children's literature, a lot of YA and I kept, you know, getting into it, and I have--I I had and have--a friend. Her name is Kamila and they're also Puerto Rican. So I reached out to them, and I was like, "I wanna keep reviewing. I wanna keep doing this thing, but you know I'm limited to the books that I can buy and all this. And I can't really...it's not really feasible for me at the moment." And they were like, "Well you know, sign up for Netgalley and Edelweiss, and reach out to publishers and all that sort of thing." And I started getting more into that sort of like reading ARCs and advanced review copies and all of this. And along the way, as I kept developing and after I graduated, I was like, "I need a source of income." And my friend is also, or was also, a sensitivity reader, and I was like, "Can you talk to me more about this sort of thing that you do? Because I have this degree and I want to use it. And I want to use my own experiences, and you know, find a way to incorporate those." And they were very kind to talk about their own experience doing sensitivity reading. And I also used an author Dan Wilds' website because they...I don't think they still do sensitivity reads, but they used to. And on their website there was like, "What is sensitivity reading? How do you do this thing?" and it was very informative and that's how I sort of started shaping my idea of what sensitivity reads were. And so I think 2018 was when the first publisher reached out to me, and it was HarperCollins, and they were doing this middle grade novel about a kid who travels to Puerto Rico to help after Hurricane Maria and and that's how I started out, was that little book, little middle grade book. And it just kept developing from there. And yeah it's been now 6 years. 12:14:54 Kate Quealy-Gainer: Yes, we are very familiar with Edelweiss and Netgalley here. Isabelle, do you want to tell us a little bit about how you got into sensitivity reading? 12:15:03 Isabelle Felix: Yes, so my background is in psychology: mindfulness, space, therapy, therapy research, hospice care and social work, and through that it led through sensitivity reading because something...I noticed two things kept coming up during my pathway: one would be the opportunities that are offered with like universities. The free therapy, the discounts, the open environment, you know, for promoting mental health. And that's not really something that's accessible for everybody. And another thing that stood out to me was the way that many clients--whether it was in therapy or in hospice care--would mention these stories that would give them the words for some of their experiences, or they were able to see another side to this situation. Like many things that they are going through or...they would have something to laugh at, or just give them like this oasis. So I wanted...I was on the path to get my PhD, but I kept getting drawn to the publishing industry because I wanted to merge psychology with literature. And you know, just more accessibility, more outreach that way. And I was really into books [and] art. And so I had to make a decision: if I wanted to continue because academia is...you know it's consuming (in a great way) but it's consuming. So I had to make a decision if I wanted to try to get into the publishing industry. So I told myself, "I'm gonna give myself a year and see what happens." So I created a website. I put myself out there with social media. I kept reading a lot, getting to know, networking without realizing that it was networking. And through that somebody who became a great friend, he was like, "I think you would be great for this company." So he referred me to that company (Writing Diversely). And yeah, so it spiraled through there and I just kept going with that and it's opened up, you know, more access to sensitivity reading, editing, networking. And funny enough, some of the the works that I do, or that I have worked on, is like the latest additions, or very similar books to the books that I read during my courses. So in a way, it feels like I've come full circle because it's like now I'm working with the publishers of those books. So it's just like I do fiction and non fiction and textbooks, and all of that. 12:18:17 Kate Quealy-Gainer: Very cool, what an interesting way to get into the field. I love it. Great story. So one of the things that I've always been curious is just about, like the practicalities of it. Does a publisher and author reach out to you? How do you contact people? And then kind of what happens and how do you initially sort of think, "Okay, this is a manuscript that I would like to do, that I feel that I can do, or that I feel like I can't do? Adriana would you mind kind of discussing that a little? 12:18:53 Adriana Martínez: Yeah. So I mostly work as a freelance space. So usually publishers or writers reach out to me. Or they're referred to me and that's how I tend to work with them. And I started out, like Isabelle said, on social media, you know, blasting the fact that I am offering these services. And because I was also networking with different authors and publishers through revealing that's how I sort of got my start. And it also helped that there were very kind writers who I worked with, who kept telling other people, "You should talk to Adriana and they're gonna be a great asset for you." So I've been very grateful for that sort of experience. And is there anything else that I...what else should I say about? 12:20:14 Kate Quealy-Gainer: Well, how do you sort of look...when a book comes to you, how do you sort of go about? What do you look for when you are reading? And again, when do you say, "I can definitely...this is something I feel really comfortable with doing" or "This is something that I'm gonna sort of kick back. And this is not a book that I want to do right now." 12:20:35 Adriana Martínez: So one thing that I'm very...I talk about: I have my own website where I list the things that I will read for or won't read for. There are times when there will be a writer who will say, "I have a Latinx character" and I'm like, "Yeah, but what is their ethnicity? What is their race?" You know I can't really talk about an Afro Latinx experience, because I'm not Afro Latina. And so that sort of thing, when that happens I'll reach out to other sensitivity readers that I know and I'm like, "Hey, would you be willing to read for this?" And so I'm like, "Thank you for the opportunity. There are other people who are better qualified for this." There was...I'm gonna name drop a bit because I'm not assigned to an NDA. But Isabel Cañas, who wrote The Hacienda, she reached out to me and she was like, "I have this Mexican character in like historical Mexico." Like this sounds very interesting, but I'm not Mexican. So I reached out to one of my friends, Paula, who actually lives in Mexico and she's an Afro Latina so she has a like different layers of experience? And I was like, "Hey, would you read for this?" And she's like "Yes, I definitely want to read for this." So that sort of thing. That's when I exercise my judgment and I'm like, "Yeah, this is better off with someone else who has a better perspective than I do." And yeah, there haven't been a lot of experiences in that sense. There was one time where I got kind of mad at the publisher because they didn't send like a content warning list for me prior to sending me their manuscript, and there some triggering content that I don't read for and it's very explicitly said on my website. And I was like...part of the edit letter and a part of the email, I was like, "Thank you for the opportunity. Here's my edit letter. For the record, next time you send a manuscript to a reader, you should send a content warning just the case." Because there are some things that you don't necessarily want to read. And even as a regular reader you don't go towards that sort of narrative or sort of experience. And so that sort of, that's sort of a negative side of the sensitivity reading coin per se. So those are sort of the practicalities when I start doing sensitivity reads. The things that I usually look for are...I sort of divide it into sections. Let's talk about the Puerto Rican representation. Let's talk about the sexuality representation, about gender and misogyny and sort of ableist comments that maybe we should like take into consideration. So that sort of thing, even if it's not necessarily what I am hired for. Because sometimes they're like, "I just want you to talk about the Puerto Rican representation." I'm like, "Okay, but I'm still gonna call you out when you say something about like Native people, Native American people." And it's not really like checked ever, so that sort of thing is something that I always look out for. I sort of divide everything into different sections and that's how I send out my edit letter. And I also go more into details if it's like, "We want you to check Spanish." I'm like okay...I have to go, "On this page they said this word that isn't necessarily said by a Puerto Rican." So that sort of thing is what I look out for when I'm doing my sensitivity reads. 12:25:12 Kate Quealy-Gainer: Steven, I see your question. I'm gonna let Jessie and Isabelle talk a little bit about that, and that's a really good question. So we'll get to it right after that. Jessie and Isabelle: it sounds like you sort of go through the same website or the similar organization. Can one of you talk about sort of how that works? And again kind of the practical nature of it? 12:25:35 Isabelle Felix: Who do you want? 12:25:35 Kate Quealy-Gainer: Isabelle, you go! 12:25:40 Isabelle Felix: Okay so your question was, "How does it go through the company?" Or just my process? 12:25:45 Kate Quealy-Gainer: Yeah, just your process. 12:25:50 Isabelle Felix: Okay, so it's similar. You know publishers, literary agents, assistants, editors, authors, YouTubers, all of them. They usually reach out to me, or be referred by somebody that I've worked with previously. Me or my liaison Writing Diversely. So I've experienced both. But there are times where I come across a post on social media, Twitter or Goodreads, what have you, I'll reach out to the author if I'm interested in something that they mentioned. I've had some clients who have started (which becomes kind of strange) because sometimes they'll start through like the company Writing Diversely but then they'll try to go over that and come directly to me, and so it's like...it becomes delicate with how that process goes. Because if the process started through my liaison, I usually want to continue that, but if they come directly to me, you know then it'll be different. So it becomes delicate with that. What I look for is similar to what was mentioned: misrepresentation, authenticity, loaded language. So it basically works like if you're reading and you come across something (and I'll answer the question that was asked)...I've had clients that don't share the same identities as what they're seeking sensitivity readers for, and people who have. So it works with both and there's sensitivity readers who have sensitivity readers. So yes, it's all about just building up that conversation and double-checking because we all have biases. Even with our own identities. So if I come across something, it's opening up the conversation, "Is this what she meant? If it's not what she meant, then consider da da da da. If it is what she meant, then either okay, or it opens up to: Is this the only way that you could go about it? Is this really necessary for the story or the film? Was it just done for shock value?" And many times my background with mindfulness-based psychology comes into play because it's really about slowing down and considering and exploring what you're doing and consciously writing, like intentionally writing. And calmly, with no shame. An open atmosphere like this is an ongoing conversation, a learning process of: are there thoughts and emotions and implicit biases that you're not aware of that could be pouring into your work in ways that you know you don't want? Or that you didn't even realize? And like I said it's doing it without shame, because many times even like in academia, or any world, you don't always have the opportunity to say "Okay, I'm wrong." There's like this pressure to always be right and that's something that I've encountered with many clients: that they're afraid to to be wrong. Like once I point something out, they feel like, you know, "Oh, I should have known." But they didn't. And that's why they're seeking help. Like if you're writing a medical drama, or anything you might seek advice from like doctors or different departments within the hospital and there's no shame in that. So in the same way, you're seeking information from people who do or don't have...who either you share that identity or the lived experience or you don't. And you're just...yes, it's just an ongoing conversation. So that's that's my process. What about you Jessie? 12:30:24 Jessie Maimone: Yeah, so for the most part I do go through Writing Diversely. And Renee, who runs that company will send me an email, and it includes a description of the work and also content warnings, which is really helpful in the form that she has potential clients fill out. And then sometimes once I work with someone, especially like a publisher, if the author has a good experience, they, the publisher, might reach out to me personally at a later date for something different. And in that case I might work with them to do that. And so for me, I look for books that are aligned with the identities that I hold. So I read through the books line by line. I put comments in the manuscript, and then I send them an overarching picture of some of the comments that I've made. And I include things like, "Here is a resource." (I keep a list of resources that I use pretty constantly.) So like, "Here's a resource about how you can describe skin color for People of Color. Here's a resource about why it is important to capitalize the B in Black." I give them lots of resources so that they can kind of decide how they might want to move forward with some of the things that I've pointed out. And to Steven's question: for the most part the authors do not share the identity. They might need to take on other sensitivity readers. For example, sometimes some of the manuscripts will have multiple sensitivity readers for different perspectives. Or I know in the past, I've said, "I think you need to reach out to an indigenous person, because I can't speak to this identity that's included. But I'm not sure that you've represented it well." Or you know it could be that for a lot of different identities. But I try and write from a space of: "This is what I know." And so this is how I might move forward with that. Or if it's something that I don't know, I will try and like help the author to either be in contact with another sensitivity reader, or give them resources. For example, I was reading for a biracial character that had a different hair texture than me and so I was like, "You know you might need to go to someone else to talk about this," because it was something they were concerned about. Or, you know, do some more research about how different hair textures react in different environments and I pointed them to some resources that might be helpful for them. But I think it's also important, to realize, like especially for me, because I'm biracial, like not every biracial person is gonna have the same experience. So, you know, kind of just being in conversations with the authors is really important, and I always tell them they can reach out to me if they have questions about my comments. I do think there's something different about an author who wants to like take up a lot of your time. Because I've had authors in the past who try to say, "Oh can we do a Zoom meeting? Can you talk about this? Maybe I should just change the character." And it's like, "It's not my book. So that's really a decision you have to make." But kind of just, you know, pointing them in the right direction and answering any high level questions they might have. 12:33:32 Kate Quealy-Gainer: Thank you. So there's a little bit of back and forth then with the author sometimes? Yeah okay that's interesting. Quinita, was that your question? Sort of like the back and forth? One of the things that I was sort of interested to hear is: What are some of the more frustrating elements that you've encountered both in the business and kind of in the process? You don't need to use names or anything like that, but if you can just talk a little bit about that? And then you can also talk about some of the better experiences or the value that you find in it. I will start with I'm gonna go back to Jessie. 12:34:22 Jessie Maimone: Sure. So for me what can be kind of frustrating sometimes is the way that the characters are written is really offensive. That can be super frustrating. Or I had an author with a biracial character, and the character was just traveling to Africa. That was It. And I'm like, "That's a whole continent. Like you have to pick a place, like you need to be specific about these kinds of things." And that can be really frustrating. A lot of authors writing skin color with comparisons to food. And so there's a resource that I always point people to, like these are the ways that you might describe skin color. We're not using food as a way to describe that anymore. And so that can be kind of frustrating. What is really nice sometimes is when people really didn't realize implicit biases that had come into their work. And then they kind of recognize that and they're like "Oh, my gosh! I never thought about that" or "This isn't a perspective I would have understood." And then they make these changes to kind of fit that. For example, I was reading a book, and one of the characters was a black woman, and I was reading for the biracial daughter in the book. But there kept being these instances where the mom, who was black, was having these instances where she was described as angry a lot. And I was like, "There's no real need for that. It's not expressed on the page. But you keep saying she's angry." And the author was really receptive, and made changes and kind of didn't realize how he was putting these biases onto the character when really it was the white male character in the story who was the angry one, and pushing emotions on to other characters. So it can be really great to have those conversations with the author, and then them be receptive to that and make changes in accordance with that. I don't always go back and reread the books so sometimes those conversations kind of gives me an idea of where they're headed, or how they might change things, which is really helpful. And so it's just nice to add that to the story, or help them figure out a way to avoid problematic behavior or language or that type of sort of thing. 12:36:32 Kate Quealy-Gainer: Thank you. Yeah, as a reviewer I have read several books that include comparisons to food and whatnot, which is always something we call out because it's not great. Isabelle did you want to talk a little bit about what you find kind of frustrating and also fun? 12:36:53 Isabelle Felix: Okay so content warning and trigger warnings were mentioned. I don't, for myself, I appreciate the mention of them, very much so, just for awareness. I don't have any trigger warnings that will push me away from reading a work, but I have reservations when it comes to the creators themselves. If they seem to [unintelligible] like for actually learning, receiving feedback. Or some clients could be very pushy. So that's usually what leads me to be wary of continuing a project, or becoming a little frustrated, or you know, taking on future works with that creator. Content wise, it's very interesting because I read works from authors from all over the world, and sometimes I've...well, before I began, I used to expect certain things from authors based in the United States and then I almost expected a little more openness with authors from other countries. Like with Black characters, for example. And what I found was many similar tropes, many similar stereotypes, many villains to be stopped, love interests to be replaced. The feisty best friend to guide the main character that is not Black or just like the identity. Or the disabled character that is a living, breathing life lesson for the other characters to become better human beings or other species, and it just becomes like, ugh. But I would say even in the frustration, even if I've read like work after work after work that has those similar tropes, I remind myself continuously, to recharge, to reset, because each creator needs genuine enthusiasm. And that's what the whole process is about...you know, it's learning. But it is a very vulnerable process for the creator and for myself. So yes. 12:39:24 Kate Quealy-Gainer: Yeah, we see a lot of--because we review fantasy--and so we have seen a lot of the sort of "magical cure" of a disability, which I think we are starting to sort of...people are kind of starting to grapple with. But I actually remember, like 7 or 8 years ago, an author had a book and basically in which like blindness was cured magically. And someone, I think that they did consult a sensitivity reader, and in the sequel there was a really lovely author's note that sort of talked about her process, and how she changed the character and kind of what she did, and it was...I appreciated the note because it showed that sort of interaction that you're talking about. Isabelle specifically, about the idea that it's just kind of like, give and take and a learning process as opposed to a shaming process. 12:40:20 Kate Quealy-Gainer: Yeah, Adriana, can you talk maybe a little bit about what you find frustrating or great? 12:40:28 Adriana Martínez: So the one thing that I find really great is, of course, the little thrill sometimes when you go to a bookstore and find your name in the back of the acknowledgments, and they say, "Thank you for your perspective and your guidance." That sort of thing is always just like thrilling and if you're with family or with friends, you're like, "My name is here!" And that sort of experience is always very rewarding because it means that you know...sometimes it's just between you and an editor. It's not even with the actual writer. So when the writer actually says, "Hey, we want to, you know, put your name in the book for the work that you did," and that sort of thing is like, "Yes, of course!" But on the flip side, when you have sort of a "meh" experience with a publisher or an editor, it sort of damages your view of the book. Because say that there's a lot of back and forth about payment. That's always the worst, because you'll send the invoice, and then they say, "No you have to do this sort of process that you never had to do with our publisher." But now you suddenly have to do. So that sort of thing it's like okay. Or you know, when someone asks, "Oh, do you have to do a foreigner tax thing?" Like no, I just have to fill out a W9, because I am a U.S. citizen. So that sort of thing is tricky. When you're like, "I don't need to fill that out..." Or even about like the rates. They'll be like, "We have a flat rate," and you're like, "That's not enough." And it'll be like really long books, where you have to read the whole thing and it's not just for one character, you have to read about like a lot of different like layers about the book. Okay, we're gonna have to talk about this. So that sort of back and forth can get exhausting. So you know I'm grateful that Jessie and Isabelle have that sort of liaison, that sort of middle man sometimes. But you know I'm usually by myself. So I have to be like...gotta like sit down and write a strongly worded letter. So that sort of thing skews your view of the book, even if the writer will later be like, "Yes, you were very helpful." You can see the book in the bookstore... Because I had this experience of a book--the one that didn't have any content warnings--and I had a very bad experience reading it, you know I will have friends who'll be like, "I read this book and it was so strange." I'm like, "Yeah I wrote in my edit letter that they should change that" and he was like, "This is the final copy. This is the one that I bought in the bookstore or that the publisher sent me, and it wasn't changed." Yeah. So those sort of experiences--they're very rare for me because you know, by and large I have very positive experiences with the writers and publishers and editors that I've worked with, but the minority is grating at best. But yeah. Those are the sort of like pros and cons of the experiences for me. 12:44:57 Isabelle Felix: Okay, wait. Can I add something to that? She mentioned when you receive the work. Some writer, or some publishers, some editors, some authors will send you the work at the final stage, and sensitivity reading could be closer to the developmental stage. So when they send the work, and at the last stage, it could become very frustrating on your end, because you're pointing out these things, like very concerning things that go beyond just opinion. Like very concrete things and then it's not really, it's not within their timeframe, so they're going to publish it anyways. And so then it goes out into the world and then it's perpetuating these things that were very harmful, very unnecessary. And then when you see that, like you know you worked on it, you know you pointed it out. If it was was done with a little more time, then it could have been changed and been a really great experience for more readers. And so that could become very frustrating and sad sometimes. So yes, very good point. 12:46:25 Kate Quealy-Gainer: Yeah, that is, if they're coming at that last stage. I mean that's when we see, as reviewers, that's when we see the final copy. 12:46:29 Adriana Martínez: Here's my theory, because I've had those certain situations. Because my theory is that they want to use us as a shield when it comes to criticism. Yeah because when a reviewer, let's say like a regular reviewer, not for like a major publication says, "I found this character very strange, or this sort of interaction very strange." I've seen writers or publishers be like, "We had a sensitivity reader who read for this" and that's literally it. That's their excuse. "It's fine because we had a sensitivity reader read for this." And you know the sensitivity reader, if it's a major publisher, sometimes is bound by an NDA and they can't really talk about that. So that sort of thing is a very sticky situation at times. With the manuscript that I mentioned that I don't like... I'm not in the acknowledgements in that book, and I explicitly said, "Do not put me in the acknowledgements of the book" because I didn't know if they were gonna keep the things or not that I pointed out. And in that sort of situation I'm like, "Don't put my name, don't tie me to your work." So that sort of situation is pretty bad. 12:48:16 Kate Quealy-Gainer: Yeah that kind of ties into Courtney's question about do publishers include information about whether their books have been reviewed by sensitivity readers? As a reviewer, that's not something that we see a whole lot. It will, like you said, it will be mentioned in the acknowledgments. But you know that's not always something that we read as reviewers, the first time we're going through it. So yeah, I don't typically see it as like any sort of like part of a promotional material or whatnot. Adriana or Isabelle, do you have anything to add to that? Alright. Well, I'm gonna kind of ask my final question, and then I will open it up, even though we've had people in the chat. So my final question is: where do you see the field going? And where do you want sensitivity reading to go? Jessie I'll start with you. 12:49:06 Jessie Maimone: Yeah, well, my hope is that more people use sensitivity readers moving forward. I would say a little bit to Courtney's question, is to find reviewers who share identities with the characters. I do think as we see...you know, I follow a lot of reviewers on Bookstagram, on Instagram or Tiktok, BookTok. And when you share an identity, that kind of lends some credit to the reviews, and it's good to get those perspectives, because everyone...like one sensitivity reader can't read for everything, like we've kind of said. I definitely noticed an uptick in the number of requests I got for sensitivity reads after the summer of 2020 and I had a feeling that would happen. So I think, as more people become aware that their books are not very diverse, or people outside of specific communities try and write books about other communities, we might see more and more people getting requests to have sensitivity readers. I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. But at the same time I hope that more people from a more diverse range of communities are writing their stories. And I also hope that...you know, publishing, very similar to librarianship, is I think 80% white (like on editorial staff, that sort of thing). So I also hope that maybe publishers will recognize that there's a gap in their knowledge, or what their editors can do. And maybe hire full time sensitivity readers or hire more editors from different backgrounds. So yeah, that's my hope for the future of sensitivity reading. 12:50:53 Kate Quealy-Gainer: Yeah, it does seem like it should move from, you know just sort of a necessarily consulting thing to, you know, having a real staff dedicated to it. I do know Lee and Low the publisher puts out sort of an inventory of the diversity--or lack of diversity--in the publishing world. So I use that in some of the classes that I teach. But that's always an interesting resource. Isabelle, can you talk a little bit about sort of where you want the field to go, or where you see it going? 12:51:28 Isabelle Felix: I think Jessie had said it very well. I share pretty much everything she said. Like yes, everything that she just said. I don't think I could add more to it without you know just talking just to talk. But yeah, she answered it very well, 12:51:44 Kate Quealy-Gainer: Adriana is there anything you want to add? I won't make you. 12:51:53 Adriana Martínez: I do believe that as time goes on there are more sensitivity readers who offer, you know, different experiences and different perspectives, and that's very good. You know, some would worry about like over-saturation in the field. But the more people who are willing to give their experiences in a professional manner or speaking and consult in that way, the better. Because you know, it's also very exhausting at times to be, you know, constantly saying like, "This is racist. Let's talk about that." It gets tiring. So to have that sort of experience of, you know, "At this moment in time I can't read for this. I don't have the emotional and psychological time to expend on that. I can tell you of other people who may have this type of experience, who will be able to help you or have the preparation necessary to talk about that sort of thing." So that's, I feel like a good part of the proliferation of more sensitivity readers. 12:53:30 Kate Quealy-Gainer: Yeah, I hadn't thought about that. But I'm sure there is a certain amount of sort of emotional readiness and emotional steeliness that you might have to, like steel yourself for some of the things that you'll be dealing with. It is 1:53, so I will open it up to anyone else who either wants to ask a question in the chat or raise their hand. Okay, no one. 12:54:27 Isabelle Felix: I can add something. Something that comes up is the financial side of it. The fees that come with sensitivity reading. Some people that have reached out to me for whatever reason they can't necessarily afford certain prices that come with it. So something that I try to do and some other sensitivity. readers try to do is...okay, so it goes by like word count, or whatever, the hours that could go into it. But if that's not the case, maybe we could look at an outline, or you know to break down the word count for that. Or chapter summaries, or just having a brainstorming session, like a chat. So there's different ways that can go around certain financial situations. So that's something that I always try to make sure people know about. 12:55:27 Jessie Maimone: Yeah and I would also add to that: don't let...like if you are getting into sensitivity reading, and you've decided on your rates. Don't let a publisher try and lowball you. I've had them offer me like almost nothing, for a over 100,000 word manuscript. And then you know I'm like, "That is outside of my...that's well below my pay range." And so if it's a publisher, especially like one of the big 5? I think it's 5 now, and not 6. But that's just like unacceptable. I know they have the money to pay for those kinds of services. So if you've decided that your rate is your rate, especially from a publisher...like I would just...I've said no in the past. 12:56:14 Adriana Martínez: To provide some...it's a bit of a funny situation. It's kind of sad, because it was a pretty big publisher. But I was working with a big publisher, an editor within a big publisher, and they wanted me to do a sensitivity read specifically for a Puerto Rican character in the book and I was like "Yeah, that's great. Here's my rates." And they were like, "That's a bit high. What if I sent you just the parts where the character appears in?" And I'm like "Well, I would miss a lot of context. And it would also need to be the parts where they're mentioned, because, you know, sometimes people talk about the other characters. It can't just be when they're in the book." And what I ended up receiving was a botched up manuscript where it was basically the full manuscript but with...I want to say about 50 pages taken out. And I was like, "I guess. The the price is still kind of the same." So what did this really accomplish? Other than confusing me about the storyline. So that sort of thing was weird. 12:57:36 Kate Quealy-Gainer: Yeah well, and part of the whole goal is to also see those characters or elements in context. Like that's one of the sort of biggest things. So it's very strange to me that they would just say only the page...like that's very, very weird. 12:58:00 Adriana Martínez: It was a very strange experience but you live and you learn. 12:58:02 Isabelle Felix: I've experienced that as well. Like cut. And then I tried to make it work and it's just like, "Okay, can you summarize because it could affect?" It's like, everything could affect how...when you reach that certain scene when that character develops in that certain way and without that extra context? 12:58:26 Kate Quealy-Gainer: That's frustrating. Sarah, I do believe that question got answered. There doesn't appear to be like a standard formal thing in which the publishers include information about sensitivity readers. It's sort of...it seems to be up to them whether or not they want to include it. And I think as Adriana was talking about, sometimes it can be used as a shield, but other times it's really great. And you know it really benefits people. So if no one else has any questions, you can feel free to raise them now. But I have 1:59 on my clock and I don't wanna overstay our welcome. Well, thank you so much, Jessie, Isabelle, and Adriana. Very much appreciated. This was so interesting. I'm really glad that we recorded it and other people will have access to it, because it was just really wonderful. So thanks so much, I appreciate it. Bye everyone!